Thank you for this post, which represents our reality as women. I like Coco Chanel’s opinion that we are irresistible as we age. I don’t plan to get any surgery and will age naturally. As we age we seem to become invisible to the opposite sex. But it’s fine. I’m experiencing life now as grandma and my kids lovingly call me glamma. This ageism and sexism is a challenge though!
And thank you very much for reading and sharing your thoughts and experience. Our society puts terrible pressure on women to remain forever young at the expense of health and in the service of profit. It’s good to know you’re able to resist these pressures as you find joy, happiness, and self respect in your own life.
I used to roll my eyes when older women talked about the day they became "invisible." Now, I'm living it....
I'm more confident in my decision to NOT see The Substance, even though it would be nice to see Demi in a solid role. As for Brazil....any time I think about facelifts, I summon Katherine Helmond whose scenes in the movie were horrifying and priceless.
From the looks of things, the filmmakers will not miss you. But I think you’ve made a wise decision, especially if you care at all about your psyche. Ditto on Brazil. It took a long time to get those images out of my mind. Thanks, as always, for taking the time to read and share your thoughts, Diana. Much appreciated.
Thanks for writing this, Andrew. I’ve been thinking a lot about the “relevancy” of older women after reading a post on the subject written by aging women writers. I’ll probably post on this subject soon. But what comes to mind now after reading your very thoughtful essay about how women are treated in the workforce and how some men in power look at older women as lesser, it strikes me as so sad and rather laughable and humiliating about men who think this way—that they are so shallow and soulless.
They have bought into a way of looking at our humanity and self-worth that is as damaging for them as for the women who also buy into that. They may be able to keep their jobs while women lose theirs, and that is unjust and needs to be remedied. But, how would you ever want to live inside their heads, with those thoughts and prejudices and ways of looking at the world? I mean, really. In some ways, I feel more sorry for them than us women. I’d rather be an old homeless crone than live inside their skin with all their wealth and power and stupidity.
Thanks so much for reading and sharing this thoughtful response, Deborah. I actually thought about you while I was writing this piece. Especially when I got to the part about women with inner resources. I've read enough of your work to know that you have continued to grow throughout your life. First, you have traveled the world. Then there's your love of art, love of art, your music, and your writing, which all attest to this. That's when I realized there are many others like you. So I pulled back from the limited but sadly truthful reality of Demi Moore's character to take a wider view. So thank you for being present in the world and brining your particular gifts to it.
And yes, I totally agree that the real tragedy is that men who demean women are damaged inside. Like you, I wouldn't want to live a moment inside their skin.
That’s so lovely of you to say, Andrew. Thank you. I think there are a lot more women with those inner resources than those without. But it is sad when women buy into the roles they’ve been reduced to. We all do to a certain extent. Men and women alike. We need to teach our children better.
I really enjoyed your perspective, and I’m glad you saw The Substance so I don’t have to, Andrew! I had no idea it evolved into a horror film. Sounds like it covers important issues just the same, but all that blood is not for me.
Working in the corporate world I saw some ageism up close, albeit subtly. I imagine I would’ve seen more if I had not retired at 70. I do think it’s harder for companies to get away with that sort of discrimination today. The thing that HASN’T changed is that aging men don’t go through the same pressure that aging women do.
Yes, the double standard really is despicable. I hope you’re right that it’s more difficult for companies to get away with age discrimination today. However, managers have figured out that they can’t be overtly ageist with the EEOC around. So they use the three write-up rule to accuse older employees of incompetence or poor performance. As long as they don’t mention age, they can get away with treating older workers unfairly. I learned this while interviewing victims of age discrimination in my last job.
Thanks so much for taking the time to read my thoughts on the film and for weighing in with your response. Much appreciated!
What-all the film was trying to do, I couldn't not see it reenforcing the women hating women trope, specifically the older woman resenting the younger woman.
As always, I enjoyed your interesting and perceptive article. The only caveat I have is lumping weight loss drugs in with hair dyes and other youth-enhancing products, Obesity is a serious problem and for many people losing weight has nothing to do with appearing young but staving off illnesses such as diabetes and heart disease. The problem with these drugs is the hurdle insurance companies make their subscribers jump through before they deem them eligible. I have 80 year old friends happy to show off their white hair and friends half their age who don't yet qualify for a weight loss prescription because their insurance doesn't feel their pre-diabetic condition is severe enough. That is truely a horror story.
Thanks for pointing that out. I totally agree. I should have provided more context, like news reports about people who don't need weight-loss drugs for medical reasons but have stampeded the available supply in order to look more svelte. There are plenty of misplaced values in this whole scenario. And yes, it's truly a horror story. Really appreciate your taking the time to read and share this important observation. Thanks so much!
Demi Moore made a similar remark when she accepted the best acting award at the Movies for Grownups event on PBS. Even though my skin fits more loosely these days, I would never go back to my 20s, she said (paraphrased). Thanks for chiming in!
Does the EEOC even exist now? If so, it's probably not long for this world. One of the joys of living on San Juan Island is seeing the women in their 20s (as I was when I first arrived) now be the same women in their 70s, within a veritable sea of grey hair. When I was in Russia in 1997, at age 45, I was the ONLY woman I saw with grey hair; it seemed the older women turned to an interesting red/orange, obviously dyed, universally. So, not just in the US.
Thanks for sharing this insight about Russian women. I wasn’t aware of that. But I’m not surprised. Fired news anchor, Lisa LaFlamme is Canadian. To your point, the hypocritical values expressed in The Substance seem to be global. And like climate denialism, they seem to be at odds with nature.
You’re fortunate to live in an environment where women feel comfortable with themselves and are able to follow the natural flow of life as they grow older.
Oh, and as for the EEOC—I’ve wondered about its future too. But it was established by the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And although those in favor of shrinking government might want to get rid of it, they’re probably aware that the move would wipe out the incremental gains they gained among African Americans in the last election. So there is that political factor in its favor, at least for now.
Thanks again for reading and weighing in. I really appreciate hearing from you.
The problem is we live in a patriarchy, and white youth and beauty are the standards by which all women are judged. As we age, women feel as if they're becoming invisible. Getting hired at any job is significantly more challenging for women over 50 than it is for men, even more so for women of color. I lost both of my careers right before turning 50. I'm 12 years into an ongoing attempt at resetting. I wrote a whole book about it, but the publisher couldn't figure out how to promote it to the huge audience of women over 50. Their PR person was in her 20s and she seemed annoyed at even having to consider promoting the book. I paid my own way to Book Fair to do a book signing in their booth.
I was a finalist on a national TV show for a DIY Competition (unrelated to the book) and the male host (who was my age, BTW) asked me on-air how it felt to be on the show with 'so many younger women.' I felt fine, but apparently the producers had some issues. They fired their older female host during this weeks long competition and the male host was released a couple of years later. For women in TV and Film, the pressure is far more intense. That's why Demi Moore (who is a year older than me) looks like she's 50, she has had significant amounts of architectural preservation. Not that I fault anyone for that, because I absolutely do not, but it is an interesting juxtaposition to the message of the film.
I have not acquiesced to these archaic, ageist standards, yet I have struggled regardless. Getting back on track professionally, even with my skills and experience, has not worked out for me as of yet. Even here on Substack, being an older female writer has proven challenging. So, to answer your question, yes, it is as bad as it seems. I don't feel compelled to be anything other than who I am, though occasionally with pink hair should the mood strike. I have never lied about my age or seen it as a negative, I'm aging DISgracefully and unapologetically. I'm not alone, and none of us are going gentle into that good night.
Thanks so much for adding your important personal context and experience to this story. It saddens me to hear of how you’ve been treated in the workplace. And yet, your story is all too familiar to me. I spent 12 years at an ethics and compliance reporting firm, which handled discrimination complaints from employees at 60% of the Fortune 500. During that time, I encountered scores of women like yourself who have been treated unfairly at work. Sadly, the EEOC cases mentioned in my essay barely scratch the surface. I admire your courage and perseverance as you continue to stand up for yourself and wish you the best with your book, your employment, and your efforts to tell your story.
Thank you for this post, which represents our reality as women. I like Coco Chanel’s opinion that we are irresistible as we age. I don’t plan to get any surgery and will age naturally. As we age we seem to become invisible to the opposite sex. But it’s fine. I’m experiencing life now as grandma and my kids lovingly call me glamma. This ageism and sexism is a challenge though!
And thank you very much for reading and sharing your thoughts and experience. Our society puts terrible pressure on women to remain forever young at the expense of health and in the service of profit. It’s good to know you’re able to resist these pressures as you find joy, happiness, and self respect in your own life.
Thank you Andrew!
I used to roll my eyes when older women talked about the day they became "invisible." Now, I'm living it....
I'm more confident in my decision to NOT see The Substance, even though it would be nice to see Demi in a solid role. As for Brazil....any time I think about facelifts, I summon Katherine Helmond whose scenes in the movie were horrifying and priceless.
Thanks for the essay! D
From the looks of things, the filmmakers will not miss you. But I think you’ve made a wise decision, especially if you care at all about your psyche. Ditto on Brazil. It took a long time to get those images out of my mind. Thanks, as always, for taking the time to read and share your thoughts, Diana. Much appreciated.
Thanks for writing this, Andrew. I’ve been thinking a lot about the “relevancy” of older women after reading a post on the subject written by aging women writers. I’ll probably post on this subject soon. But what comes to mind now after reading your very thoughtful essay about how women are treated in the workforce and how some men in power look at older women as lesser, it strikes me as so sad and rather laughable and humiliating about men who think this way—that they are so shallow and soulless.
They have bought into a way of looking at our humanity and self-worth that is as damaging for them as for the women who also buy into that. They may be able to keep their jobs while women lose theirs, and that is unjust and needs to be remedied. But, how would you ever want to live inside their heads, with those thoughts and prejudices and ways of looking at the world? I mean, really. In some ways, I feel more sorry for them than us women. I’d rather be an old homeless crone than live inside their skin with all their wealth and power and stupidity.
Thanks so much for reading and sharing this thoughtful response, Deborah. I actually thought about you while I was writing this piece. Especially when I got to the part about women with inner resources. I've read enough of your work to know that you have continued to grow throughout your life. First, you have traveled the world. Then there's your love of art, love of art, your music, and your writing, which all attest to this. That's when I realized there are many others like you. So I pulled back from the limited but sadly truthful reality of Demi Moore's character to take a wider view. So thank you for being present in the world and brining your particular gifts to it.
And yes, I totally agree that the real tragedy is that men who demean women are damaged inside. Like you, I wouldn't want to live a moment inside their skin.
That’s so lovely of you to say, Andrew. Thank you. I think there are a lot more women with those inner resources than those without. But it is sad when women buy into the roles they’ve been reduced to. We all do to a certain extent. Men and women alike. We need to teach our children better.
No problem;)
Great post. Important subject. Excellent insights.
Thanks so much for reading, commenting, and restacking. Much appreciated.
I really enjoyed your perspective, and I’m glad you saw The Substance so I don’t have to, Andrew! I had no idea it evolved into a horror film. Sounds like it covers important issues just the same, but all that blood is not for me.
Working in the corporate world I saw some ageism up close, albeit subtly. I imagine I would’ve seen more if I had not retired at 70. I do think it’s harder for companies to get away with that sort of discrimination today. The thing that HASN’T changed is that aging men don’t go through the same pressure that aging women do.
Yes, the double standard really is despicable. I hope you’re right that it’s more difficult for companies to get away with age discrimination today. However, managers have figured out that they can’t be overtly ageist with the EEOC around. So they use the three write-up rule to accuse older employees of incompetence or poor performance. As long as they don’t mention age, they can get away with treating older workers unfairly. I learned this while interviewing victims of age discrimination in my last job.
Thanks so much for taking the time to read my thoughts on the film and for weighing in with your response. Much appreciated!
What-all the film was trying to do, I couldn't not see it reenforcing the women hating women trope, specifically the older woman resenting the younger woman.
Yes, that's certainly there. Big time. Hence, Snow White's Wicked Queen trope. Thanks so much for reading and pointing that out.
As always, I enjoyed your interesting and perceptive article. The only caveat I have is lumping weight loss drugs in with hair dyes and other youth-enhancing products, Obesity is a serious problem and for many people losing weight has nothing to do with appearing young but staving off illnesses such as diabetes and heart disease. The problem with these drugs is the hurdle insurance companies make their subscribers jump through before they deem them eligible. I have 80 year old friends happy to show off their white hair and friends half their age who don't yet qualify for a weight loss prescription because their insurance doesn't feel their pre-diabetic condition is severe enough. That is truely a horror story.
Thanks for pointing that out. I totally agree. I should have provided more context, like news reports about people who don't need weight-loss drugs for medical reasons but have stampeded the available supply in order to look more svelte. There are plenty of misplaced values in this whole scenario. And yes, it's truly a horror story. Really appreciate your taking the time to read and share this important observation. Thanks so much!
If I can chime in... I associate thinness with age these days. As a colleague put it, when you're young it all sits firmly in place.
Demi Moore made a similar remark when she accepted the best acting award at the Movies for Grownups event on PBS. Even though my skin fits more loosely these days, I would never go back to my 20s, she said (paraphrased). Thanks for chiming in!
Does the EEOC even exist now? If so, it's probably not long for this world. One of the joys of living on San Juan Island is seeing the women in their 20s (as I was when I first arrived) now be the same women in their 70s, within a veritable sea of grey hair. When I was in Russia in 1997, at age 45, I was the ONLY woman I saw with grey hair; it seemed the older women turned to an interesting red/orange, obviously dyed, universally. So, not just in the US.
Thanks for sharing this insight about Russian women. I wasn’t aware of that. But I’m not surprised. Fired news anchor, Lisa LaFlamme is Canadian. To your point, the hypocritical values expressed in The Substance seem to be global. And like climate denialism, they seem to be at odds with nature.
You’re fortunate to live in an environment where women feel comfortable with themselves and are able to follow the natural flow of life as they grow older.
Oh, and as for the EEOC—I’ve wondered about its future too. But it was established by the Civil Rights Act of 1964. And although those in favor of shrinking government might want to get rid of it, they’re probably aware that the move would wipe out the incremental gains they gained among African Americans in the last election. So there is that political factor in its favor, at least for now.
Thanks again for reading and weighing in. I really appreciate hearing from you.
The problem is we live in a patriarchy, and white youth and beauty are the standards by which all women are judged. As we age, women feel as if they're becoming invisible. Getting hired at any job is significantly more challenging for women over 50 than it is for men, even more so for women of color. I lost both of my careers right before turning 50. I'm 12 years into an ongoing attempt at resetting. I wrote a whole book about it, but the publisher couldn't figure out how to promote it to the huge audience of women over 50. Their PR person was in her 20s and she seemed annoyed at even having to consider promoting the book. I paid my own way to Book Fair to do a book signing in their booth.
I was a finalist on a national TV show for a DIY Competition (unrelated to the book) and the male host (who was my age, BTW) asked me on-air how it felt to be on the show with 'so many younger women.' I felt fine, but apparently the producers had some issues. They fired their older female host during this weeks long competition and the male host was released a couple of years later. For women in TV and Film, the pressure is far more intense. That's why Demi Moore (who is a year older than me) looks like she's 50, she has had significant amounts of architectural preservation. Not that I fault anyone for that, because I absolutely do not, but it is an interesting juxtaposition to the message of the film.
I have not acquiesced to these archaic, ageist standards, yet I have struggled regardless. Getting back on track professionally, even with my skills and experience, has not worked out for me as of yet. Even here on Substack, being an older female writer has proven challenging. So, to answer your question, yes, it is as bad as it seems. I don't feel compelled to be anything other than who I am, though occasionally with pink hair should the mood strike. I have never lied about my age or seen it as a negative, I'm aging DISgracefully and unapologetically. I'm not alone, and none of us are going gentle into that good night.
Thanks so much for adding your important personal context and experience to this story. It saddens me to hear of how you’ve been treated in the workplace. And yet, your story is all too familiar to me. I spent 12 years at an ethics and compliance reporting firm, which handled discrimination complaints from employees at 60% of the Fortune 500. During that time, I encountered scores of women like yourself who have been treated unfairly at work. Sadly, the EEOC cases mentioned in my essay barely scratch the surface. I admire your courage and perseverance as you continue to stand up for yourself and wish you the best with your book, your employment, and your efforts to tell your story.